Used: Bard Song: "But what if I want to stop singing?"

So two suggestions in one post.

In my opinion:

1. Every single bard song should automatically cancel/end/dispel any song currently in progress before starting its own effect.

2. ;;info selfbuffs should list active bard song effects, and ;;tool dispel xxxx should work to end the song (in case you want to stop singing without having to exhaust another use of bard song with suggestion #1).

Seconded!

Thirded

Fourthed!

Fifthed!!!

Sixted!

Careful folks... I think there is some cosmic rule that only a certain small number of people can ever share an opinion with me... I may get sent to somewhere unpleasant if this keeps up

and no, not the back seat of a volkswagon

Aww, dave, I wouldn't worry too much about it ... the world's gonna end in 2012 anyways ...

--omg, I just had a thought ... what if the end of the Mayan calendar was based not around ancient cosmic planetary revolutions, and instead is really an ancient representation of how many people agree with dave in one thread? And, oh crap ... manny's on this list, too ... (disaster x 2)!

Some Bard Song suggestions in general for when/if the bardsongs get rewritten

Cancellation: Yes... please... If anything, the more I think about it, being able to cancel a song would actually make Lasting Inspiration a viable feat.

And, I think that a good process would be... Click on the song, and it activates, deducts a song use. To cancel, could either go a VC command, or click on a new song to activate that one instead... as suggested.

Instead of a VC command to cancel a song without singing a new one though, make the songs a "toggle" similar to the combat modals. Click on a song and the script first checks to see if a song is already active. If no song is active, activate the song, deduct a bard song use. If yes, check to see which song. If it's a different song, cancel the current song, activate the new song and deduct a song use. If it's the same song... cancel the song.

While VC commands are great, the songs are already a script activated from clicking a button, so for player ease it may be better to just have the cancelling done by clicking the button again. Saves on a quickslot/constant typing (and in the heat of battle, typing out a command to switch songs would be a real hassle.... and that's where 99% of all the song-switching would be done anyhow).

Lasting Inspiration (not to be confused with lingering song BTW):

While song-cancelling would make this feat useful, I would still like to see its function tweaked (if that's possible... not sure if it's hardcoded or not). No specific ideas on how to make this one better ATM though.

Specific Song Suggestions:

Bard Song:
The regular bard song is pretty good as is. I would love to see the "level range" of effects broadened to 40 levels though. The AB boost... This I would like to see scaled as well. Default NWN bard song gives +1 AB at bard levels 1-7, and then +2 AB from bard level 8 through 30. Tweak it to give +1 per 8 bard levels though... for +5 AB at bard level 40. The saves bonuses could probably get slightly better scaling. The temp HP, AC, skills and damage bonuses are great though as they are.

Curse Song:
Same suggestion as for bard song... but obviously in reverse, as curse song penalizes the same stats on enemies that bard song boosts on allies.

With both bard song/curse song.... I'd like to see these "pulse" rather than be a "one shot" effect.

The reason being... it's rather a hassle to make sure to get "in range" of the whole party when activating the song...

I know the reasoning has been given that "you have to hear the whole song to get it's effect", but that's just not how it works... The "effect" is applied when the song starts... so a target (enemy or ally) doesn't have to hear the whole song... they just ahve to hear the begining, and they they can run off and keep the effect... while party members/enemies who are present for the other 99% of the song's duration, but weren't "in range" when it started that very first second... nada.

Pulse the songs.

If the allies or enemies go outa range... they lose the benefits. They stay in range, they keep the benefits.

Mundane Melody:
The "Item unequipping" aspect should go. Enemies will re-equip their magical weapons right away anyway, and 99% of baddies in Aenea don't have much gear on anyway to be removed.... so this aspect of the song really just screws over allies with no mind-spell immunity.

Cap the spell failure at 90% for 40th level bards. 90% really isn't much difference than 100%, BUT, it's still a sliver of a chance for an enemy caster to save his bacon.

Also... apply the spell failure (And spell resistance) to the bard singing as well. Currently, the bard doesn't get the SR benefit and is free to use magic even with the song in effect.

Quaking Chorus:
Feedback for the discipline check please.

And I would think some way of making this song somewhat party friendly would be great too. For Alastair... this is simply NOT a song that can be used in party. He wrecks even epic level characters with it, and low and mid level party members... they're pretty much guaranteed a trip to the great hall. The song is great for soloing, but bard's are a party based character really.

To have the song keep some of it's teeth... I would suggest that party members automatically pass the discipline check and not be affected by the knockdown. They will still take SOME damage (which can easily be mitigated by DR, but it won't be a party-nerf.

And on the DR... I would even like to see a reduction in the amount of damage in exchange for the ability to bypass DR as the bard level scales up.

Something like the song bypasses +1 DR at bard level 20, +2 at bard 30, and +3 at bard 40.

Traveller's Chant/Anthem of Freedom:

I can see these two songs combined, with some minor changes to the effects.

Traveller's Chant... It's basically a "mass haste with caster level 10"... the "slow/hold on failed save" on enemies is nice, but I would rather see that dropped all together to have the party buff aspect boosted.

Why combine with Anthem of Freedom? Thematically, the two songs seem to be pretty much similar. And Anthem really doesn't offer anything good until the late epic levels.

So... Traveller's Chant... does the speedup/haste progression for bard/party as it does now... remove the enemy debuffing, and add in more party buffing... Immunity to slow/holds, immunity to petrify's/bigbies at the last stages of the song (30, 35 and 40).

Air of the Righteous/Verse of the Vile:
Very nice songs... but would be better if the bard got the benefits as well.

Hymn of the Pyre/Winter's Carol:
These are nice, but their effects should "pulse" like Quaking Chorus. They're rather useless with a "one shot" effect.

Ballad of the Wild:
This song is... well... meh. Limited practicality for a feat buy really.

If this song worked sorta like "dead man's march" though.. .THAT would be fun.... Create a summoned animal/beast dependent on level, which stays for the duration of the song.

Dead Man's March:

This song is spectacular... and there's very little I would want to see changed.

The only thing I would want though is the "leaves when no enemies are in sight" thing to be removed. This aspect of the song is buggy, and I've had it often enough that the summons despawn before the song ends even while in the middle of combat and surrounded by baddies.

Soothing Refrain:

Great song... but the scaling isn't so great. The jump between the 35th level of the song and the 40th level one is huge (35th level is 1/2 bard level, min 11... so 19 max for a 39th level bard... .then 40 for a 40th level bard).

At the lower levels, the scaling is even lower (example, level 1 of the song is 1/12th bard level min 1, and the level 3 version of the song is 1/11th bard level min 2.... the description is misleading even because the "min" implies you can get better... but 1/12th of bard level 2 is still less than 1... so unless the song rounds up the bard level... there's no scaling at all until the very late epic bard levels.

So... Change the scaling. To keep it not becoming uber, but still being able to be pretty good.... I suggest dropping the bard level from the calculation, and scaling it off just the charisma modifer.

I would also suggest adding in some other scaling benefits... saving throw bonuses vs poison and disease.... and at later levels, even a boost to concentration checks vs taunt

So... something like:

bard level 1: 1/10th char modifier
bard 3: 1/9th cha mod
bard 6: 1/8th cha mod
Bard 9: 1/7th cha mod
bard 12: 1/6th cha mod +X saves vs disease
bard 15: 1/5th cha mod +x saves vs disease/poison
bard 18: 1/4th cha mod +x saves vs disease/poison, +x concentration checks vs taunts.
bard 20: 1/3rd cha mod +x saves vs disease/poison, +x concentration checks vs taunts.
bard 25: 1/2 cha mod +x saves vs disease/poison, +x concentration checks vs taunts.
bard 30: Cha modifer +x saves vs disease/poison, +x concentration checks vs taunts.
bard 35: Cha Modifier X2 + X saves vs poison, immunity vs disease, +X concentration checks vs taunts
bard 40: Cha Modifer X2 + immunity to disease/poisons, +bard's cha modifer to concentration checks vs taunts

Somnific Lullaby:
Nice as is.... but perhaps some mitigation of the effect on party members w/o mindspell immunity please?

That's about all the ideas I got right at this moment...

ooof... and since that suggestion post turned into the "great text wall of china".... A copy of the one paragraph that I am really strongly in favor of in regards to bard songs tweaks (aside from the song cancelling)

With both bard song/curse song.... I'd like to see these "pulse" rather than be a "one shot" effect.

The reason being... it's rather a hassle to make sure to get "in range" of the whole party when activating the song...

I know the reasoning has been given that "you have to hear the whole song to get it's effect", but that's just not how it works...

The "effect" is applied when the song starts... so a target (enemy or ally) doesn't have to hear the whole song... they just ahve to hear the begining, and they they can run off and keep the effect...

while party members/enemies who are present for the other 99% of the song's duration, but weren't "in range" when it started that very first second... nada.

And not just for the bardsong/curse songs.... but for all bard songs... they should "pulse".

Hmmm.. Tset's Hymm of the Pyre.... I pretty sure this does pulse.. not so much in a visual way, but if he sings and does "kinda nothing" a round or two later the enemies get burned again (flame on body, piddly amount of damage) ... I might have to check though.. but I'm kinda certain....

Your right in that it may only be to beings "that heard the beginning", and not to newcomers.. but how can the bard focus the songs so that the lyrics effect newcomers if he hasn't been singing for those enemies from the start.... the best way to get a "feel" for a song is to listen to the intro isn't it ??....

Hymn does pulse the fire damage, but if I recall correctly, it only pulses on enemies intially affected, as you mentioned.

And you can get a feel for a song even if you turn on the radio, and the song's already half way done and you hear the chorus or such.

If the songs pulsed... it balances out.

If you're not in range... no effect. You come into range... effect. Plain and simple. If you want the "full effect" of the song.. you do have to be close enough to hear all of it.

It works that way with pulsers like soothing refrain... and it works very well. If you want Alastair to give you the full 600 regen his song grants... you have to stay in range the entire time. If you are in range for only half the song, you get only half the regen.

Current working of bardsong/curse song/non-pulsing aenean songs: If you are there for the first second of the song, you get the effect and then can teleport to the other side of aenea and keep the effect...

While someone who wasn't in range that very first second, but comes and stays within range for the rest of the song... no effect.

That's contrary to the idea that "you have to hear the whole song for it to affect you".

That the effect is applied at the very instant the song is sung rather than after "hearing it" for the whole 10 rounds is contrary to the "have to hear all of it" notion.

I see your point ...

(and i'm thankful quaking chorus pulses.... I can't count the number of times I've accidentally activated that song while another player was in range and I had to run away to stop killing them!)

Oh... idea for how to make Lasting Inspiration useful...

Instead of increasing the song duration X10.... have it increase the song's range beyond the default 30 feet (and rename the feat too, since it's allowing the bard to "sing louder" as it were!)

LI would be great if combined with on/off singing.

Perhaps a new feat that expands the range like Epic Volume would be in order?

Having Soothing Refrain be 100% dependent on Chr mod is kinda lousy for anyone other than a fully focused Chr bard. I can fully get behind a more even scaling... Why not just bard level + Chr mod (x2 or x3 or what have you) so there's a real benefit to Chr, but the feat is not nerfed for str or dex bards, and it'll scale more evenly.

Ditto on the pulsing...

I suggested charisma mod only because that'll allow the regen to get powerful, but not overpowered.

Could do the complete opposite as well... do it strict regen = bard level.

I'm sure a better calculation could be though up as well. I would definitely want to see a cha bard have an advantage over a str or dex bard though with the songs

I think too that the regen shouldn't go overboard. The 40th level powered refrain is insane as is... A 40th level cleric, even using metamagic to put regeneration into every possible slot, can't touch even a fraction of what a 40th level bard can regen. I'd have to double check the numbers, but I don't think a 40th level cleric could match a 20th level bard in that regards either.

Not that I want to see it nerfed too much, just kept within moderation. It's actually quite a blast when Al can keep a party of lowbies alive and kicking against mobs that should by all rights slaughter them.

I just thought of an insane bet... two bards, one lowbie... both bards built similar... one starts singing quake... one starts singing refrain.... the bet.. how long will the lowbie survive (assuming the refrain bard is somehow either immune to quake or knockdown)?

Depends on the levels of the bards and the charisma modifer of the quaking chorus bard.

Stop the press.

Hold the phone.

Call the coast guard.

I agree with every single one of Manny's bard song suggestions.

For Quaking Chorus, the ability to penetrate DR up to 3 and be "slightly" more party friendly would have to come at the cost of a reduction in damage output, but would SO totally and completely dovetail with the idea of Bard's being Party Support PCs in every Bard Song they have, even an offensive one like Quaking.

For Soothing Refrain's calculation:

1/2 Bard level [rounded down, minimum 1] plus 1 point per 5 base ranks in Perform plus 1/2 Charisma Modifier [rounded down, minimum 0] (Maximum of 40 regen per round)

This allows low level bards to get a solid number out of the song, but reduces the high end from 40 for most bards (unless they crank for 58 CHA), and the range would still be 1 to 40.

Additional suggestion for Mundane melody.

Instead of the spell failure being automatic and unresistable....

Make it an opposed skill check.

Bard's perform skill vs the caster's concentration.

If the caster fails their concentration check, then they get hit with the spell failure for that round/pulse. If they make their check, no spell failure.

And a suggestion for pulsing songs...

When a bard is affected by silence, the singing should stop, be it someone casts silence on the bard, or he comes within the aura of someone under the effects of silence

This would work best with pulsing because each round, the song can check to see if the bard is silenced or not before firing off the actual effect of the song in use.

Oh, yes, silence = golden

But, seriously, awesome thinking.

Bard songs will be rescripted eventually. They're 3rd or 4th or somewhere around there on my list of projects.

Most suggestions here used, and now live in-game.